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I find it ironic that most people see europe as more liberal than the USA yet most people I know who move there are staunch conservatives who move there because the policies they care about and the people themselves are overall **less** liberal than the USA.
It seems very few people even realize that by many measures europe is more conservative rather than liberal. A prime example of this would be the taxation scheme which in much of europe has a lower ratio between the poor and the rich classes (closer to flat tax).
I'm confused by your usage of terms "liberal" and "conservative". Especially the second paragraph makes completely zero sense to me. EU in generally income taxation is progressive (=the more you earn the more you pay as percentage of income) but also has a high tax free threshold (=earn less than 12 GBP per year, pay no tax). But what does it have to do with "liberal" and "conservative"?
I'm afraid you confused me even more 😂 Can we just talk in objective economic terms like "high" vs "low income tax"?
Otherwise it's practically impossible on semantic level to determine what people are talking about - like "you know, the policy that some people calling themselves neo-liberals proposed" but this is totally different between countries and changing in time. Unlike Marxism, there's no canonical scripture of neo-liberalism or neo-conservatism...
@kravietz Sure, we can do that...
So basically the "left" is the side who tends to focus on redistribution of wealth via progressive taxation. In other words, having an extremely high tacx burden on the rich in an attempt to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor.
Therefore if we measure this phenominon by comparing the tax burden of the highest tax class compared to that of the lowest tax class, you find there is a greater difference between the two in the USA than in Europe.
I am in the highest tax bracket both in the USA and in the Netherlands where I now live, I've also worked in a few other countries.
The total taxes I have to pay in the USA if you consider **all** taxes (local, state, income, property, all of it) I pay significantly higher taxes at the highest tax bracket than I do in europe. Furthermore there is more of a difference between the taxes paid by the lowest tax bracket and the highest than there is in most of europe.
In effect when you factor in all taxes the USA tax system is in fact more progressive than the european system, typically.
> I pay significantly higher taxes at the highest tax bracket than I do in europe
Ok, so *this* comes as a surprise because in the libertarian circles US is presented as a practically tax haven, while EU is portrayed as some kind of new USSR that takes almost all of your income in the form of tax :)
@kravietz Yes it always amazes me how no matter where you are in the world the groups which lean strongly towards one agenda or another (label themselves as left or right adamatly) tend to be completely clueless as to the reality of the situation.
Politics around the world is more about propaganda than facts, sadly.
but yea, I pay a much lower tax rate overall in europe than I would in America. Like I said I know a great many people who have fled america to livein Europe and paying less taxes and being at the top of the tax bracket is something I hear quite often.
But in other ways too, europe is far more conservative (aka, small government, less intervention and regulations) when it comes to foreign affairs too, as is seen by the fact that they have fewer military bases around the world and invest less money in trying to regulate or intervene in other countries as well.
US position here is actually quite similar to the position of Russia (albeit with more dire consequences): "we're a global superpower, we need to invest into foreign policy".
Which is precisely what is happening: US or Russia can blackhole billions of dollars in some idiotic foreign war while their internal policy is in deep shit, with schools and hospitals tragically underfunded.
@kravietz Cant argue with that.
Perhaps the most enlightening statement on this I saw was from Zeev Sternhell who once wrote that the biggest mistake of 20th century philosophers was to underestimate the power of nationalism and other tribal instincts and overestimate rationality.
People can not only die for but they can also live in shithole (sometimes literally) only for even an elusive feeling of their tribe "being in control".
What can you do with such compatriots? 😂
@kravietz indeed, it really can reach levels of insanity.
@kravietz I am using the more modern day USA usage of the terms than the traditional one you are likely thinking of.
Generally when people use liberal or conservative today they really mean neoliberal or neo-conservative. in fact neo-liberal would be classical conservative and a neo-conservative would be classically liberal. So they are admittedly confusing terms.
Might be easier if you just consider what i said in terms of left=liberal and right = conservative