digicana @digicana@social.privacytools.io

@greyor @emsenn No hard feelings at all! :)

@greyor @emsenn That’s a super good attitude to have, and it helps cut through others’ anger. Though as probably many minorities would tell you, sometimes people say stuff like that because they just don’t like that ethnic group / gender for reasons that run deep. But that kind of attitude can work wonders, sometimes.
https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes

@greyor @emsenn Anyhow I really appreciate this discussion, it’s been very stimulating and has given me a lot to think about. Thanks you two! :)

@greyor @emsenn I mostly agree with that but in my interactions with people of all races and genders, I just figure “Hey, you’re a human being”, and while I understand culture and experiences shape personality, I would not tell someone their thoughts are only *because* of their identity. That’s patronizing and rude. It’s one thing to ask someone “how did you get to feel that way”, it’s another to say “that’s the kind of thing a Mexican/black woman/white man” would say.

@greyor @emsenn What it is is combat - using a person’s born genetic makeup as a rhetorical bludgeon to move a conversation in a direction that puts you on the offensive. I’ve seen plenty of white nationalist racists do this on Reddit and it’s infuriating how well it works. Seeing it used as a counter tactic makes sense if you are engaged in psyops *combat* to move a movement, but it should be seen for what it is (a form of dishonest argument). 2/2

@greyor @emsenn As am I - but what you are speaking of hints at the two methods of changing minds; combat and persuasion. White men are defiantly not getting the short end of the stick, but if you are trying to even things out through social persuasion, flippantly attributing (i.e. discarding) opinions a person expresses solely to their ethnicity or gender is both not persuasive and in the case of gender/ethnic equality, not even self- consistent. 1/2

@emsenn @greyor That’s certainly your choice, but again - if the default thing to do is block people who you don’t understand and who don’t agree with you (but who are otherwise not harming you) then you are self selecting to be immersed only in ideas that conform to what you already believe - which is exactly what I mean by an echo chamber. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@emsenn @greyor 2/2 Racists similarly are at the terminus end of the bell curve (though are scarily working their way up the hill), and unlike many other things at the flat end of the curve, their opinions are *not* benign or moral or okay - and when they post on public forums it’s equally frustrating when they say “stay outta my club!”. Because it’s not a club, it’s a worldwide social network broadcast openly to everyone!

@emsenn @greyor Not at all! But if I’m, say, a furry or own a real doll or some other thing on the far end of the societal bell curve and I post on an open online forum about that, I’m not surprised if others pop their head in and say either stupid things (blocked!) or things that disagree (conversation!). Because if I didn’t want that I’d not have my conversation out loud in a public space! 1/2

@greyor @emsenn
Feeling strong good or bad feels about your own or other people’s melanin content and genital ownership feels weird, man, no matter who is advocating it in what context. 2/2

@greyor @emsenn & I do think that with all that openness there is still a lot of echo chambering going on. You are legit apologizing for using a common language phrase because some really stupid people use it as a low-key dog whistle, but in the same breath are told you’re probably a white guy and should apparently feel bad about that. 1/2

@greyor @emsenn So far I have come across a lot of people too in my online journeys over the years! Mastodon seems to have a pretty strong collection of people who don’t feel like they fit in other places. But I feel like if you want a small community of people who agree with you without outside commentary, there are social platforms far better suited to that. (Discord, IRC, closed web forums). Mastodon is wide open - saying “butt out of my club!” feels misguided here to me.

@emsenn @greyor That’s a really good way of summing it up! But I don’t know if that’s really a great thing. People are afraid to challenge hate, so hate is allowed to be the loudest voice in the room. Wander into /r/thedonald and post factual counters to racism and you’ll be banned and maybe doxxed very quickly. Echo chambers breed extremity. Today I’ve been told I’m wrong because I’m probably a man and I’m probably white. Which is also the result of an echo chamber.

@emsenn @greyor Right, but understand that what you hear might not be what the intent is, and we should try to discern intent, not hyperfocus on the exact wording of things. Racists ironically use the flip side of this same argument when they create cute little memes that don’t overtly call out racism but are, as you say, dog whistles; they claim the exact wording of the memes are OK so they must be OK even when the intent is clearly to be racist.