@L1Cafe @crunklord420 @tk Just like people will jaywalk to get over roads, they will "jaywalk" when they're too lazy to write that one line of code properly, or too lazy to configure that one piece of software properly

@L1Cafe @crunklord420 @tk Humans just like it easy and chill. It's also why Apple has been so successful among a ton of other things

@quad @tk @crunklord420 I have a MacBook Pro :<

@L1Cafe @tk @crunklord420 I gave my Macbook Pro to my sister lmao

@crunklord420 @L1Cafe @tk That's just what happens when tech companies think sysadmins and developers are the same thing except developers are smarter

@quad @tk @crunklord420 My previous company hired me for sysadmin work. Their previous employees were maintaining all the server infrastructure, but their official title was Developer.

Let me tell you. It wasn't a pretty sight.

I mean, all things considered, it wasn't that terrible either. But I had to fix a lot of stuff. Not that I hated the job, anyway.

@L1Cafe @tk @crunklord420 Not sure how closely you follow me but I recently managed to convince my workplace to let me spend the money and resources to set up a proper linux environment based on Red Hat with external consultants available and some Ansible for automation.

About 2-3 years ago I took over some Linux servers "maintained" by the devs. The thing was a honeypot of everything from Java software that was two years out of date to LXC containers with postfix and SSLv3 enabled.

Even now I haven't managed to fix even half of them. So I'll be setting up a whole new proper Linux environment from scratch.

@quad @L1Cafe @tk it's probably that. But I also believe these tech companies know that security and quality of their products do not matter. Their target demographic have been trained like pets to accept it.

It's actually a bad move from a business perspective to spend the effort to provide security and quality, which is why webdevs running docker is acceptable.

@crunklord420 @quad @L1Cafe @tk
>trained like pets
>not conditioned like cattle

@Lucky @crunklord420 @L1Cafe @tk The consumers generally do wag their tails when handed a new product so I would indeed say more like pets

@quad @L1Cafe @crunklord420 @tk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0k0U6VhJn8
Piggies can wag their tales too. Look at them rush in like it's black friday.

@Lucky @L1Cafe @crunklord420 @tk okay, fair enough

@quad @L1Cafe @crunklord420 @tk
Also, people generally care for their pets, while I suspect corps don't care for their consumers.

@crunklord420 @tk @quad

> It's actually a bad move from a business perspective to spend the effort to provide security and quality

No it isn't. It may not make sense in the short term, but the biggest companies on the planet (GAFAM, FANG, whatever you want to call them) use solid engineering principles for long-lasting success.

Generally speaking, small and medium companies don't care about these issues until it's too late, and they're hacked, for example.

@L1Cafe @tk @quad it shocking you think "FANG" or "GAFAM" makes good software. From my perspective they look like they're racing to see who can destroy their legacy products the fastest.

@crunklord420 @tk @quad I have contacts inside Google and Microsoft. It may not look like it to the outsider, but these companies have the most solid software engineering principles I have ever seen. Nothing comes even close. Google, in particular. Amazon is second. Apple and Microsoft are last. But Microsoft is still better than your average run-of-the-mill 25-people webdev shop, this much I assure you.

@L1Cafe @tk @quad I'm pretty sure they just hire "good devs" just to prevent them from making good software. Google and Microsoft have made some of their most popular software strictly unusable (Chrome, Windows) through intentional sabotage understanding that the plebs do not care about quality or security. I could go on, thinking about good old Google products that either no longer exist or have been degraded over time.

Anyone employed by these companies should feel ashamed.

@crunklord420 @tk @quad Google Chrome is by itself an excellent product. It simply does not cater to your particular needs.

I personally use Brave. It's basically Chrome minus all the Google bullshit. Brave wouldn't exist without Google Chrome, let's be honest here.

Windows... Well, I'm not a fan, but there's a reason it's consumer computer OS number 1. (And one of them is not brainwashing, extortion and/or marketing).

@L1Cafe @crunklord420 @tk It's kind of a dilemma consumer in tech. Because the whole industry moves so fast that you gotta shit out brand new shiny things constantly for consumers to care. But to actually make proper solid products you need to take your time to design them carefully.

Consumerism is honestly kinda more at fault than companies here. We expect brand new shiny things for as cheap as possible.

If either consumers were more patient, they could spend more time developing it. Or if they were willing to pay more, they could hire more people to make up for the lack of time.

@L1Cafe @crunklord420 @tk It's also why I like enterprise-grade tech.

Like my Ubiquiti EdgeRouter.

The original EdgeRouter is from 2014 and still gets updated at least quarterly. About a year ago it got a major version upgrade in software too.

Enterprise-grade stuff tends to be hella expensive, but in return you get longer support times and an overall more reliable product. Heck just look at ThinkPads, why do you think everyone buys them used?

The obvious drawback though is that the more enterprise-grade something is, the less it cares about non-corporate things. Like being open source.

@L1Cafe @crunklord420 @tk Also enterprise-grade code just doesn't exist anymore. Possibly due to the trends within tech now, finding good software that's well tested and whatnot is just about impossible.

"Enterprise-grade" software these days just means consumer-grade software but we spent more money on marketing to sell it to your company, and you indirectly pay for all that marketing through a stupidly high price

@quad @tk @crunklord420 @L1Cafe Sadly (at least some) "enterprise-grade" hardware is going that way too. For example, just look at the newer ThinkPad generations...

@quad @tk @crunklord420

> Like being open source

Well, I'd say Red Hat products are as enterprise-grade as it gets, really. I would be inclined to say there's as much open source push on the enterprise side of things as there is on the consumer side of things.

@L1Cafe @tk @crunklord420 On the enterprise-grade side there seems to be more of a focus on consuming open source rather than creating open source.

Though exceptions do exist, Red Hat is pretty great. Though hopefully it doesn't crash too hard following the IBM buyout. They haven't gone straight to shit yet, but you just never know

@quad @tk @crunklord420 Microsoft is clearly steering towards open source, too. Edge, Visual Studio Code, .Net Core, PowerShell.

Don't get me wrong, above all, they're companies. They want to make money. They're not charity NGOs. But still, Microsoft didn't strictly need to make Edge and VSCode open source.

@L1Cafe @quad @tk Open Source is a marketing gimmick. It was extremely clear that Microsoft runs the show when they removed the Santa Hat from Visual Code. It was a straight top-down decision from corporate.

@L1Cafe @quad @tk nevermind that backdoors they include.

@crunklord420 @tk @quad Like I said. They're not NGOs. Of course they only care about money. That's the point.

But again, they didn't strictly need to do it. Microsoft's survival doesn't necessarily depend on VSCode being open source, that's my point.

@L1Cafe @tk @quad you've heard of embrace, extend, extinguish right?

@crunklord420 @tk @quad Of course I have.

Wouldn't you agree that the Brave, Edge and Vivaldi are a net positive outcome, though?

I mean, Google is now kicking adblocks and Brave and Vivaldi are joining forces to create an alternative to the Chrome Store. I think that is pretty positive, honestly.

(Even if you don't like the browsers specifically).

@L1Cafe @crunklord420 @tk The selection of browsers is a win.

The selection of browser engines that every browser relies on is not.

@quad @tk @crunklord420 My point is that I take a pragmatic approach and simply pick the most (IMHO) suitable tools for the job.

I wouldn't dare do web development on Chromium, for example. I find Firefox' debug options vastly superior. But I don't like using Firefox as my main browser because it is not very respectful of my laptop's battery.

@L1Cafe @quad @tk it's really only a matter of time until Firefox turns into total malware like Chrome. Firefox technically already became malware once they started pushing "studies" in secret to intercept and modify webpages without informing the user.

@L1Cafe @crunklord420 @tk No, they don't need to do it. But companies tend to view their open source code as an "investment" to recoup in another form later. In the case of Microsoft, it's often trust and influence, in the case of Google's Chromium it's control, and in the case of Apple... well on the open source front, Apple seems to have surprisingly few ulterior motives. Too bad they seem to close most of their major projects now though, probably exactly because they didn't profit off their open source code.

@quad @tk @crunklord420 CUPS was pretty nice indeed, but it seems like Apple doesn't care about anyone but themselves. Exactly like Microsoft.

And Red Hat is not a saint either, they push open source to outrun the closed source competition, while pushing their systemd, PulseAudio, Ansible, and other stuff to other distributions.

This isn't inherently bad (or good) either. Nothing's ever black or white.

@crunklord420 @L1Cafe @tk Corporations have a tendency to only use open source for marketing or control.

Fairly certain Google wouldn't have made Chromium open source without the intent of giving them indirect control of every major browser.

@quad @crunklord420 @L1Cafe @tk
These companies release stuff as open source to so that it becomes popular and crushes competition.
They make huge monstrosities that no individual or small group could possibly fork so that they maintain control of the code base.
Don't forget that IBM supported Linux back in the day in order to crush Sun Microsystems, and it worked.
Sun released Open Solaris to try to gain mind share but by then it was too late.
Now everybody has to release things as open source if there's any possibility of competition.

@L1Cafe

Saddly MSFT makes a lot of money on .Net Core being open. I use .net core webapi a lot to do backend, which for me is one of the best languages to do it. But saddly the best environment to code is Visual Studio, omnisharp is an amazing tool to code completion and generation o .net it isn't better or good like the one on visual studio which is closed source, and because the free version of visual studio can't be used by companies, they probably profit a lot from companies that has to buy windows + visual studio licenses(which are expensive) to code on .net core which is free and open source

@quad @tk @crunklord420

@kumicota @L1Cafe @crunklord420 @tk That's the classic Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

A prime example is Azure Sphere, it's so stupid and blatantly obvious that luckily it seems to not be gaining much traction and I hope it stays that way.

Specially they "Embrace" Linux by making their own Linux Distro.

They then "Extend" it by adding features to it.

They then try to "Extinguish" it by only making it possible to program against those extra features only if you're running Windows or using other Microsoft products.

@quad @kumicota @L1Cafe @crunklord420 I'm sure some folks would like to think Microsoft has changed significantly, but they still have hints of their old behavior here and there.

@tk @L1Cafe @crunklord420 @kumicota That's their Embrace, Extend, Extinguish strategy.

Embrace includes making people believe you are being nice.

@quad @L1Cafe @crunklord420 @kumicota After all, who wouldn't like a hug, even if there's an ulterior motive behind it?

@tk

I'm an example of it but I prefer to search on docs a function that omnisharp coudn't find than using windows for it

@quad @L1Cafe @crunklord420

@tk @L1Cafe @crunklord420 @kumicota Embrace doesn't just mean "Include it" or "Use it". It means make people believe we care about it and are doing good, even when we reach the extinguish phase, make people believe "we just happen to have the best implementation" rather than making them realize that they purposefully extended it in a way to promote their own interests for additional profits.

Companies will always be companies, Microsoft is very good at playing human however.

@quad @kumicota @L1Cafe @crunklord420 @tk if people want to lock themselves into the shitstack that is .NET, that's a good thing because they'll go under soon enough. Doesn't extinguish anything else tho.